That Baptist Ain't Right: Debate in OK: Resolved, the United States Constitution neither established nor advocates for a Christian nation.

Monday, February 28, 2011

Debate in OK: Resolved, the United States Constitution neither established nor advocates for a Christian nation.

I always enjoy intellectual discussion and good debate. But on this topic, there is no real debate. Anyone who honestly believes the US was founded as a Christian Nation has zero understanding of the history, the Founders, the political underpinnings or even a modicum of Biblical theology.

Oh, sure, there are some who want to impose their views on others if others won't willingly acquiesce --- and impose their views on the Bible also --- but for the most part I think it is more of a question of a wilfull ignorance.

And then there is the Rev. Steve Kern, husband of OK state representative Sally Kern. Yes, THAT Sally Kern.

If you want to see and hear what bad history and bad theology look like, the Rev. Steve Kern is Exhibit A.

The OK chapter of Americans United for Separation of Church and State held a debate between Rev. Kern and Dr. Bruce Prescott, executive director of Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists. Rev. Kern took the position that the US was founded as a Christian Nation and Dr. Prescott took the position that the US was founded as a secular nation with religious liberty for all faiths and even those of no faith.

You can watch the video of the debate here.

Good job, Dr. Prescott!

For a more detailed information about this event, check out the blog for Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

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Great Quote List

"The notion of a Christian commonwealth should be exploded forever. ... Government should protect every man in thinking and speaking freely, and see that one does not abuse another. The liberty I contend for is more than toleration. The very idea of toleration is despicable; it supposes that some have a pre-eminence above the rest to grant indulgence, whereas all should be equally free, Jews, Turks, Pagans and Christians."
--- John Leland, Colonial Virginia Baptist, "A Chronicle of His Time in Virginia," as cited in Forrest Church, The Separation of Church and State, 92 (2004).

"Religious matters are to be separated from the jurisdiction of the state, not because they are beneath the interests of the state but, quite to the contrary, because they are too high and holy and thus are beyond the competence of the state."
--- Isaac Backus, New England Colonial Baptist, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773.

" 'The tragedy of our day is the climate of fear in which we live and fear breeds repression. Too often, sinister threats to the Bill of Rights, to freedom of the mind are concealed under the patriotic cloak of anti-Communism. Today, it's the cloak of anti-terrorism.' [Adlai] Stevenson also remarked, 'It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them.' "
--- Adlai Stevenson as quoted by TV lawyer Alan Shore on Boston Legal in the courtroom scene "Stick It."

"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. . . Our government. . . teaches the whole people by its example. . . If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy."
--- Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v. United States in the dissenting opinion, later vindicated in Katz v. United States.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be draped in the flag and carrying a bible."
--- Sinclair Lewis, It Can't Happen Here, 1935. (Common spurious attribution, but an oh-so-true statement.)

“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are anger and courage. Anger that things are the way they are. Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”
--- St Augustine.

"To think deeply in our culture is to grow angry and to anger others; and if you cannot tolerate this anger, you are wasting the time you spend thinking deeply. One of the rewards to deep thought is the hot glow of anger at discovering a wrong, but if anger is taboo, thought will starve to death."
---Jules Henry, Culture Against Man, 1963.

"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death."
--- George Carlin (1937-2008) .

"Honesty is not something you flirt with — you should be married to it."
--- Table Top at Joe's Crab House, Aurora, CO.

"It is easier to do a job right than to explain why you didn't."

--- Martin Van Buren.

"The Religious Right is a reminder as to why we have the 1st Amendment --- people can't resist forcing their religious interpretations onto others if others won't willingly acquiesce."
--- TBAR, 07/04/08.

"I'd rather have an honest Atheist in power than a corrupt Christian."
--- Ed Edwards, 09/01/08

“Government has no more to do with the religious opinions of men than it has with the principles of mathematics. Let every man speak freely without fear, maintain the principles that he believes, worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God or twenty Gods; and let government protect him in so doing, i.e., see that he meets with no personal abuse, or loss of property, for his religious opinions....”
--- John Leland, Colonial Virginia Baptist minister and religious liberty advocate, The Rights of Conscience Inalienable, 1791 pamphlet.