tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post9046972063159725132..comments2023-10-20T08:38:30.870-04:00Comments on That Baptist Ain't Right: Alliance Defense Fund Caught Lying AgainThat Baptist Ain't Righthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10227307740155986353noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-73497817703949687672009-04-23T19:56:00.000-04:002009-04-23T19:56:00.000-04:00Fox: Holly is really on top of this & has some...Fox: Holly is really on top of this & has some good insights. The current edition of Report From the Capital is available now.That Baptist Ain't Righthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10227307740155986353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-56344050537547972462009-04-23T19:55:00.000-04:002009-04-23T19:55:00.000-04:00Chet: This is exactly what I'm talking about w...Chet: This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say the ADF relies on being able to spin this. The judge was expressly clear in his ruling that the ACLU did NOT ask for the "See You at the Pole" event be stopped. Again, the newspaper reports =never= read this the way the ADF did, & the ACLU blogs over that time =NEVER= not once said they wanted the events stopped. Never. The blogs, press releases, & all info from the ACLU simply said the endorsement must stop by the schools & the students may freely & on their own volition participate in those events. You have been played.That Baptist Ain't Righthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10227307740155986353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-89345884878048908752009-04-23T15:55:00.000-04:002009-04-23T15:55:00.000-04:00I think our friend Holly Hollman is doing good wor...I think our friend Holly Hollman is doing good work there in Tn.<br /> Check my latest comment in Pierce's blog about marietta and the Flag.<br /> Got some good stuff there about the new Upenn book by Steven Miller on Nixon and Graham.<br /> You'll want a copy soon as you can get your hands on it; and the Ga Mtn Man to boot.foxofbamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10329204323614353093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-23335791392923382052009-04-23T13:23:00.000-04:002009-04-23T13:23:00.000-04:00Hey man, we are both reading the same request for ...Hey man, we are both reading the same request for relief. It says nothing about "endorsing," unless you want to interpret "encouraging" as synomous. I'll grant that, but "encouraging," if you want it to mean "endorsing," is part of an INCLUSIVE list. It doesn't say "or," it says "and." The ACLU, if it meant, "permitting the endorsement of," and "authorizing the endorsement of," would it not have written that? The ACLU wanted to effectively shut the events down by getting a court order preventing school officials from "permitting" and "authorizing" the events. Again, TBAR, read what the ACLU wrote without reading your conclusions into it.Chet Lemonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-89526051341607470752009-04-23T12:13:00.000-04:002009-04-23T12:13:00.000-04:00Chet: I'm afraid you don't understand the ...Chet: I'm afraid you don't understand the use of "permitting" & "authorizing." Those do NOT refer to stopping said events entirely. It means that the school doesn't have any control, sponsorship, or in any way help the event. "Permitting" would be the school actively allowing & promoteing the event, e.g., poster contests, allowing the Praying Parents to pass around notes to kids during the school day, etc. I'm afraid the ADF is being intentionally dishonest in how it characterizes the complaint. I would suggest you contact the judge & ask him what the complaint was about.That Baptist Ain't Righthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10227307740155986353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-46338753574225396972009-04-23T11:53:00.000-04:002009-04-23T11:53:00.000-04:00Don't know what to tell you, TBAR. The ACLU's wor...Don't know what to tell you, TBAR. The ACLU's words are pretty clear. It's in their own sworn complaint submitted to a federal court in the section I pasted in my comment, so I don't know where else to point you. It looks like you depended on second- and third-hand sources from which to draw your conclusions. I went to the source document and showed clearly that the ACLU demanded an end to these events. The words "enjoining," "permitting" and "authorizing" have plain meaning in the section in which they ask for specific relief. The relief they requested, I will post again:<br /><br />"Enjoining the Defendants and their successors, employees, and agents, from PERMITTING, AUTHORIZING, encouraging, and acquiescing in the delivering of: 1) the “See You at the Pole” event; 2) Praying Parents activities; 3) the “National Day of Prayer” event; 4) the Christian themes and songs at the Christmas program; and 5) classroom prayers."<br /><br />Nowhere do they ask the court to enjoin the district from "endorsing" these events. Read what it says without reading into it an interpretation that will allow you to stand by the charges you made in this post.<br /><br />I recognize that the court entered a judgment in favor of the ACLU clients. However, courts frequently rule in favor of a party without giving said party everything it sought. That was the case here. In the request for relief, the ACLU was unambiguous. All you need to do is read what the ACLU itself wrote in it complaint.Chet Lemonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-66427824109361602342009-04-22T23:04:00.000-04:002009-04-22T23:04:00.000-04:00Anyone with "one eye and half sense," as my mama u...Anyone with "one eye and half sense," as my mama used to say, can see that the ACLU did not seek to stop the events. Chet's quote is quite clear, even if he doesn't understand the legal meaning of "permitting." If you blindly and mistakenly believe, as many seem to do, that the ACLU seeks to stamp out Christianity, it appears to be pretty easy for the ADF to deceive their followers.Georgia Mountain Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12476804374376833046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-86346006502786537222009-04-22T21:37:00.000-04:002009-04-22T21:37:00.000-04:00The problem, Chet, is the ADF knows most people do...The problem, Chet, is the ADF knows most people don't understnd the legal speak. "Permitting" in this case means that the school sanctions the event by scheduling and having official activities to help the event. The word does not mean to stop the event entirely. The ADF did tell a fib here and they know you and most folk don't understand the terms well enough to know the difference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-77367398892556164252009-04-22T21:28:00.000-04:002009-04-22T21:28:00.000-04:00Chet: You need to read it again. The ACLU did NOT ...Chet: You need to read it again. The ACLU did NOT ask those things be stopped. Never. At no time. Not once. They asked the school STOP THE ENDORSEMENT of those activities. The "permitting" means the endorsement of those activities as the ACLU attorney argued. I challenge you, Chet: show in the complaint where the ACLU asked those things be halted. You won't find them. The ACLU did NOT ask for that. You are doing the same as the ADF & twisting the words to say something it does not. At no time during the arguments did the ACLU attorney ask for those to be stopped. I challenge you to produce the documentation from the testimony -- it is NOT there. The judge was clear that he awarded =for= the ACLU when he awarded attorney fees. If the ACLU were asking those things be stopped, the judge would have awarded against the ACLU. Sorry, Chet, but you are doing the same thing the ADF did --- you're not representing the facts as they are.That Baptist Ain't Righthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10227307740155986353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-67643366558734606502009-04-22T19:58:00.000-04:002009-04-22T19:58:00.000-04:00From the ACLU's complaint, under "Request for Reli...From the ACLU's complaint, under "Request for Relief":<br /><br /><br />"Enjoining the Defendants and their successors, employees, and agents, from PERMITTING, AUTHORIZING, encouraging, and acquiescing in the delivering of: 1) the “See You at the Pole” event; 2) Praying Parents activities; 3) the “National Day of Prayer” event; 4) the Christian themes and songs at the Christmas program; and 5) classroom prayers."<br /><br />(Emphasis mine)<br /><br />http://www.aclu-tn.org/pdfs/doe_vs_wilson_county_complaint.pdf<br /><br />Might you have wanted to read the ACLU complaint to find out what it actually demanded in federal court before accusing ADF of "lying?" The ACLU was clearly seeking (their words, not mine) an end to these events. They didn't get that.Chet Lemonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-76556845032072027122009-04-22T19:12:00.000-04:002009-04-22T19:12:00.000-04:00One more thing: I heard somewhere the reason so ma...One more thing: I heard somewhere the reason so many groups like the ADF lie is that it takes more effort, time & space to counter a lie than it does to just tell the lie. I see how much space it took me to go over & expose the ADF lie, verses a simple sentence in their press release to spin their misrepresentation. Yep. That's why they are so effective in their deception of the uneducated & naive.That Baptist Ain't Righthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10227307740155986353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-63297458454810345492009-04-22T19:10:00.000-04:002009-04-22T19:10:00.000-04:00That's exactly right. The ADF depends on their...That's exactly right. The ADF depends on their donation base to not check the facts but blindly follow along with whatever the ADF says because, after all, they are "Godly." Sorry, but the ADF is fleecing the flock by lying & spin. They rely on the naive. I'm appalled at their arrogance.That Baptist Ain't Righthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10227307740155986353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8714280596892104880.post-82951766244286856432009-04-22T17:25:00.000-04:002009-04-22T17:25:00.000-04:00The Alliance Defense Fund is depending upon the fa...The Alliance Defense Fund is depending upon the fact that most of its supporters will never read the legal ruling, and that they will not believe anyone else's summary of the ruling. Obviously, the secular, anti-Christ liberal press would never tell the truth about such an issue.Georgia Mountain Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12476804374376833046noreply@blogger.com